It seems, that the panel I was part of at SXSW caused a bit of a stir.
How big a stir? Read through the Twitter comments that streamed in during and after (It was a trending topic for a good 3-4 hours). Near the conclusion of the discussion, I got into an argument with Mike Samson of crowdSPRING. I suppose it was less of an argument, and more of me calling him out on things he said that were said to incite me rather than forward the discussion. Clearly he was successful because I lost my cool.
I won’t apologize for what I said. I don’t feel bad about it. I meant every word, and it all came from a good place.
Unfortunately, I know there were a lot of people in the audience who didn’t understand the genesis of the argument and didn’t understand why I was so passionate in my response to cS’ position on their business model’s proximity to Threadless’.
After the panel, and especially after reading the misconceptions and reactions in the Twitter stream from the panel, I felt it would be best to write a post explaining where that passion came from. We’ve all been worked up over issues that deeply matter to us, and like my dad used to tell me, I’m glad I counted to 10 before writing this post.
Now that its been several days since the panel, the adrenaline and emotion generated has subsided. I’ve realized that writing a post filled with examples of how cS uses comparison to Threadless as a way to prove that they’re not doing anything wrong, or telling people that regardless of what I say, Threadless works on a spec model, is pointless.
It doesn’t exactly take investigative journalism to uncover these facts. Just google “Threadless crowdSPRING”. The reality is nothing that I can say will stop them from comparing themselves to Threadless since they have clearly seen success through the brand association to draw in more designers and companies to their “community.” (why else would they do it so often?)
When it comes to our company I have an insane amount of passion. Yes, Jake and Jacob founded the company, but I have been there from the beginning. I have put my heart and soul into skinnyCorp and its community, and when Threadless or the Threadless’ community is misrepresented, its brings out the fight in me.
I have a huge amount of pride in what we’ve accomplished with Threadless and the benefit that we bring to the design community. Creating more opportunities for the artists in our community to learn, grow and interact is our primary focus. Creating more opportunities for our artists to be printed, and thereby having them see a financial benefit more often, is a huge priority for us. Without our community, there would be no Threadless, and no matter how big we get, or old we are (we are going to be 10 next year!), we know that simple fact, and it drives everything we do and everything we have (and will) become.
When a company comes along that consistently represents themselves as a similar business to Threadless, yet in reality are merely a design marketplace focused on transactions (which creates a highly competitive relationship between it’s so-called design community), I get offended.
Let me be as clear as I can be: Threadless and cS not only are not the same business, we will never be the same business.
Our focuses are different; our goals are not aligned. Much like Etsy, Moo or Flickr, our community drives our business, whereas with cS and marketplaces like it, their business drives their community.
It’s not easy to be a designer these days. It can feel like walking aimlessly through the desert in order to find work. And, unfortunately, for many designers, that means there’s plenty of food for the vultures. I just happen to find it more rewarding to have a company that acts as an oasis. That’s the difference, I suppose. Threadless is a company built by designers, for people that appreciate design, so we do everything in our power to make the designer’s experience the best possible.
The sad thing is no designer (myself included) will ever win an argument about cS as long as they keep the focus on spec work and make it an emotional issue. This is a fact that cS is fully aware of. Don’t forget, their main spokesperson online is a lawyer, and it’s to their advantage that the discussion remains about the emotional process their company uses, not the cut-and-dry mechanics of a marketplace.
I encourage you to check out my friend Micah’s post on this subject. He comes to the table with a non-emotional, non-designer’s perspective and explains why as long as the debate is about spec-work, cS will always win.
And with that, I’m done talking about crowdSPRING. It’s a waste of my time to be focusing on such negativity. It doesnt help Threadless’ community or our business, and there are just too many awesome projects at Threadless for me to be working on. BTW, have you seen Charlie’s latest video? Or our community’s latest designs? Perhaps our latest giveaway through our Twitter account or Facebook page? Sorry, but I cant help but be passionate about what we have going on!
13 Comments
I see what you mean. I shop at threadless, and have for a while now. Actually, most of my shirts (just about all) are from there. I remember when the site started to boom. And it never felt like a marketplace. It was never focused on competition, rather creativity.
cS feels like a market. There is supply and demand, and there is competition. It’s a completely different feeling. It’s unfortunate that they win over their visitors with fallacies. They look at Threadless, something novel, and force an association that does not exist. Hopefully people will begin to recognize that.
Those that don’t get it never will and it’s a waste of time talking about how shitty spec work is. These cesspools (or marketplaces if you will) devalue design and designers by saying anyone can do it…
Mike was saying in the panel that a stay-at-home mom or anyone could have a chance to win the contest. Yeah, anyone but a real designer that has a passion for the project or design they are creating.
Do you really want to associate your brand/identity with a $200 design? Ok, counting to 10… that is all I’m going to say. Threadless is so much better than this. Keep doing awesome things, involving your community, and focusing on the positives.
I really enjoyed reading this. One gripe: Threadless and Etsy are not the same (in focus or model). I know that’s not exactly what you said, but it seems a lot like comparing crowdSPRING to Threadless.
Fred – it’s a good point. While Etsy is a marketplace, they’re a company driven by and focused on their community. That’s why I put them in the same camp as us. They take strides to support the artists and artisans on their site, and their purpose is to gain exposure for the people in that community by providing an easy link to the buyers of such items. While Etsy is surely a transaction-based marketplace, the sellers set the prices, and it’s 100% a seller’s market.
Micah’s post nailed it: “The buyers [at cS] are looking for low cost design”. You don’t effectively support a profession that way. Threadless may operate in the realm of spec, but the prizes are in line with what professional designers make for designing T-shirts.
Fred – We actually pay our designers roughly 5 times the industry standard for a tee shirt design!
Threadless and etsy are both about creating art. They are not about designing logos and such on spec.
Should an artist create a painting even if they don’t have a buyer? Absolutely.
Should an artist design a specialized logo or graphic for a company even if they have little chance of getting paid for it? Much harder decision.
Word Jeffrey.
I like your point of view concerning the community driven vs business driven fact.
I have got a certain feeling each time i visit a new website. A kind of gut feeling. And as i visited cS the first time i immediately knew that they were business driven. I knew that it was not made by designers for designers and design addicts.
You see it in their comments. It’s a fight designer vs designer and not a community feeling like “hey let’s make some great stuff together” as i see it on Threadless.
Jeffrey,
I wrote a post about this recently and feel the EXACT same way that you do about the situation. If you’ll note the comments on the post, someone actually suggest that you guys started the whole situation.
In fact, I helped run the first online snowboard design contest for Monson Snowboards back in 2000…and much like with Threadless, the contest wasn’t about getting people to design a bunch of stuff that could be cherry picked later. The guidelines were clear, and more than anything else, our impetus was to create something fun and new for the still young online design community.
In any case, I really appreciate you speaking your mind and making it clear that you disagree. More people need to use their voices to educate those that don’t know the full story.
In a good way,
Greg
Greg – Thanks for the comment. That’s rad you were part of running the Monson design contest. I wish that was something they’d have continued. We’d certainly have loved to get involved with it! I really enjoyed your post, only I have to disagree with one minor thing. I wouldn’t toss worth1000 in with the group that you did because they’re really different. I know those guys personally, and they’re VERY invested in the design community and the success of it.
I have to take the side, and the smug, disingenuous take that Samson made on the panel should have been ob.
Unfortunately, there will always be people who are not creative, who have a narrow imagination and see little value in paying more for a quality design
(crap, I hit the button too soon!)
…see little value paying more for a quality design when they can turn to farms like crowdSpring and get a lot more work for very little investment, regardless of quality. Naturally, these people also run their own business, but they are not concerned if their actions lead to getting ametuerish work rather than something more professional because the bottom line is the price and the value.
Wal-Mart works the same way, and while they have been extremely successful and offer low, low prices, most of us probably aren’t particularly proud of what they’ve done for the whole of the retail industry.
My biggest gripe is not that these design ghettos exist, but that they are being propped up through their exploitation of the Web and the willing slaves that actively support them (against all logic), rather than falling apart like they deserve. Could we call the prevalence of spec work a graphic design “bubble”?
From a client standpoint it seems that the major flaw in CS is that it’s the luck of the draw that one will receive the proper quality work, prompt delivery and continued support that are important in a designer/client relationship. So as far as I’m concerned the old addage of you get what you pay for still holds true (no real paradigm shift here).
In that sense, then, Threadless and CS are dissimilar in their business models rather than similar. With threadless, the best products (shirt designs) rise to the top while with CS the quality of the product (in this case, the designer and the work they produce) can and will vary.
This debate won’t end anytime soon, unfortunately, and it will spread to other service oriented businesses. One day lawyers rather than solely designers will be competing for clients online and arguing over quality vs. price. I can almost promise as much. Too bad it seems to be starting with design.
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[...] creative spec work – interesting comments on Jeffrey (of Threadless) Kalmikoff’s blog http://www.callmejeffrey.com/2009/03/21/the-straw-that-broke-kalmikoffs-back/. The results showed that 40% of those polled thought that creative spec work was [...]